Charlotte Moorman, "terrified of everything in life, but if you tell her it's a performance, she'll do anything." She "enjoyed suffering for her art."
You all are doing an exceptional job of extracting the parts of the reading that resonate with you personally and identifying why. Thanks especially to those of you adding personal stories, experiences, and artists/works. Kathryn, I really enjoyed your additional posts this week from your TASA presentation. Thanks for sharing. Thanks to all of you for sharing, and I hope you will feel free to keep these contributions coming. You may have already begun googling videos of Charlotte, but since this week's reading covers the seminal work TV Bra, I thought you might enjoy some videos . . . and Charlotte's southern accent, something that potentially introduces another layer to high bow/low brow discussions.
Some of you began to discuss the wage gap, something that was all over the news this morning with Jennifer Lawrence discovering how much less she made than her male cast mates. "All I hear and see all day are men speaking their opinions, and I give mine in the same exact manner, and you would have thought I had said something offensive."
http://thebillfold.com/2015/10/jlaw-on-the-wage-gap/
Thoughts?
Jenifer Lawrence – I like her quote, “I’m over trying to find the “adorable” way to state my opinion and still be likable! F*** that. I don’t think I’ve ever worked for a man in charge who spent time contemplating what angle he should use to have his voice heard. It’s just heard. “
ReplyDeleteThis is advice my father shared with me while in college (minus the F word)! (My “I” experience) It’s hard to believe that the wage gap still exists – but it does! My question, “Why should you leave “fate” up to culture or society to do for you what you can do for yourself and negotiate better, smarter and patiently!” (The "fate" question came from somewhere in our book on Charlotte Mooreman - when reading about her organizing the festivals. I apologize I couldn't find the actual page.)
Hard lesson for Jennifer to learn, was she walking with one eye open (naïve)? She wouldn’t have known the difference if it weren’t for the hack – but noooooowwww we have to discuss because of her ranting and the rating junkie media culture we live in!
Experience is everything! Did she think because of her celebrity status she was above or excluded from feminism situations? Instead of ranting Jennifer, pick yourself up, dust yourself off and do better at the next negotiation! (Each man has to negotiate his own wage and if he doesn’t he will get taken! Robert DeNiro probably still has to negotiate just like Bradley Cooper; Point being each one of us has to negotiate! Stop being so passive!)
I don’t think being a woman means you have to be adorable – which is what her perception lead her to believe – I love her rhetoric – authentic to her embracing and trusting her “self” while dealing with her crisis of confidence! (word used on page 192 to describe Charlotte Mooreman)
ON ANOTHER NOTE: Charlotte Moorman’s video interview on sextronics was interesting – I hadn’t discovered that particular one. I found her rhetoric indicated that her nudity was her art with her cello (art about art). I think Charlotte has grown on me –think we would have a lot to talk about! Lol! Not on nudity in art but just art in general – theory and what it means to push the envelope type conversations! Her festivals definitely did!
"I don't think being a woman means you have to be adorable"
DeleteTHANK YOU!! I was so happy to hear my own opinion reflected in your words. This is one contention that I have with the "Lenny" crowd of modern feminists. I can agree with them on the problem, I believe that too much emphasis has been placed on what a boy or girl "should" do in order to live up to their "biological parts". Where I diverge from the Jennifer Lawrence, Lena Dunham, and Chelsea Handler school of thought is in their method. How can they expect to be taken seriously if their solution to the problem is to have respect just handed to them. That is not how respect works. In the military, I was respected by my squad and my leaders but I had to earn every inch. And in return, they had to earn mine. To throw a verbal tantrum on the "hurtful" internet because you aren't being treated well, and society made you feel badly about yourself is a complete lack of understanding of self-respect, much less what it feels like to be genuinely respected by the people in your life. These modern actresses are not, by their own words, bringing relatable problems to discussions of gender. Why do we continue to listen to these women for guidance on pushing the boundaries of gender? Filmmaker Lauren Greenfield set an amazing standard for talking about what it means to be a girl growing up in her "Like a Girl" campaign. Those are the questions we should be asking, rather than why I feel some need to choose between being "adorable" or a "bitch" when it comes to my pay. On a personal note, I have never negotiated or asked for more when it comes to a new job. Once I have made myself invaluable, then we can talk. Is this because I'm a passive and weak woman? Or a smart business minded person that knows you have to prove yourself before you can ask for money.
I think I've never really felt the pressure to chose between "adorable" and "bitch." Maybe I've lived a blissfully ignorant life. But for me, much of my "feminist rage" goes towards the cost of childcare, the lack of social support for breastfeeding, my unpaid maternity leave, and my husband's non-existent paternity leave. And honestly, when I was single and child-free, I gave little thought to women's rights and equal pay. I really thought I could do anything and prove myself to anyone, "Like a Girl." It wasn't until I became a mom that I started to feel that glass ceiling.
DeleteAll in all, I feel like Jennifer Lawrence "has it good". She's white. She's single. She's childless. I don't feel like much can stop her from equal pay.
Holley and Courtney - LOVE YOUR THOUGHTS!
DeleteAt first I wasnt sure about how to ask for more money because I didnt want to seem greedy when I didnt have enough experience to back me up. I mean it still cracks me up not just for woman but any new graduate to look for a job and every job asks for a four year degree and 4-5 years experience. Well how can we get that experience if we just graduated and do they consider volunteering and freelance work as experience. I didn't really get into the whole wages issue until I sat in my cubicle and looked around saw mostly woman and asked an older co-worker why. Also speaking to another co-worker who has been with the same company a year more than myself who gets paid a little less than myself and I have told her stop being scared and GO ask for more. which is kind of ironic because she is the loudest complainer in the office.
DeleteOH and the childless thing thats another story... I am one of the 3 woman in my office who has a child and one on the way, but they have learned that won't stop me even though I got some push back when they found out I was pregnant. Maybe not right out but I kept hearing how "other" woman had become pregnant and left. It took me a while to convince them that this pregnant woman is not going anywhere. I will now be set up at home to work till March then back to the office.
Gail,I agree with your take.She is also young and cannot compare herself with stars who have been in the business for years.Everyone has some dues paying which comes from experience.An episode from mad men is quite telling and what women had to go through in those days(1960's):
ReplyDeletefile:///C:/Users/home/Desktop/NYC%20conf/play%3b_ylt=A0LEVivRAR9WIoEAS5cnnIlQ%3b_ylu=X3oDMTByMjB0aG5zBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--.htm
David - I am unable to get the above video working. and thanks for your comment. There is no doubt in my mind women have had to prove and work hard for equality. There was an episode on Last Man Standing S5E03 Ping Pong - that I wanted to share also about the feminine mystique and the Mom's reason for voting for Hillary - it was presented that you should vote for her just because she's a woman. Women should stand together because were women. My I language; "what!!! It shouldn't be just about the "fight" ,how about you put your brain on and vote for the woman that is best qualified for the job based on experience and leadership - not just because she's a woman! I felt the show did not present the Mom's thought very well in that moment.
DeleteSorry Gail,
Deleteif you google Mad Men and put in art department,it should come up.Note the commercial art on the easel and the abstract painting in the background.High art vs. commercial art.Its hilarious! About a 3 minute clip.
David - great video! Thanks!
DeleteWeek 7: Catch up
ReplyDeleteI had two thoughts as I read ch 14 the topless cellist
1. to be an artist who wants to be "known" or have their work "known" means a public forum is needed. and this text reveals just how much work outside of the art making this track requires. one cannot simply make work. there is a clear business side. one of moor man's strengths is she does not shy away from this -- her festivals took a damn lot of hard work, yet that work only strengthened her own network in which her own work would continue to occur in. The beginning of the chapter began with her addressing 300 hundred invites...my worst nightmare (thank goodness for email). every artist i have met who is moving up in their career, relative to a having a public audience for their work, not only is cranking out work (prolific) but they are also doing the business side that is required.
the business side in terms of personal networking is my kryptonite.
2. i keep returning to notions of acting, directing and screen writing versus what is performance art. how are these different? my working definition that seems to be coming to light as i read more and more about moorman and paik is that i have had (and probably still do) the belief that performance art (versus being an actress) is where the author and performer are one. the performance is embedded and driven by the author. i am sure this is a limited view point. and i see one who performs another's work, another's script, under another's direction as more of theatrical acting. I am not claiming it is not art. For clearly their is an art to acting (A and B actresses exemplify the difference). And perhaps this correlates to a difference in the style and nature of creativity I see between those who write music versus those who play. I don't see one as more or less artistic. but i do see a difference in that i privilege the creator over the performer. i am not sure if this is just an embedded convention i am holding to or if one is more X than the other.
anyhow, that in this chapter moorman is clearly under the direction of Paik--he adds the little nipple fan tassels...the printed invitations with moorman mid strip tease "overprinted with a text in which PAIK explains his concept...he understood his work as part of a historical continuum...paik quipped that his innovation in opera sextronique 'was to make a color organ with nude lady's organ itself!!'
so is moorman a performance artist like yoko ono or is she a performing artist/actress? how is she being used that differently than the female paint brushes that Yves Klein employed in 1962 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0mYZbYdIpU . for me moorman has the same freedom's a really good actress or musician has but is still following another's script/score...and a great actress/musician can bring a script/score alive in away that a less practitioner cannot.
i do not see moorman in a like category as yoko ono or carol schneemann.
though carolee schneemann performs (as complicit pawn) say in the pieces like SITE 1964 with robert morris and herself, she is actress/object in that piece. morris developed the piece and directed it, schneemann is classified as performance artist not for her participation in other artists' works but because she has piece after piece that comes from her own conceptual development...like inner scroll.
http://artforum.com/video/id=31196&mode=large&page_id=8
http://www.caroleeschneemann.com/interiorscroll.html
the artist that wants to be known definitely have it easier now a days huh with social media and emails :o)
DeleteI find it kind of expensive too I used to want my art to be shown and seen but some of the exhibitions can be costly. Also I learned from a professor the business side of galleries can be a bit scary too (with the percentage they take YIKES)
Their seems to be a mixture of all kinds of art and artist in this story and with Moorman at times I feel like she never should have even given herself a title or put her self in a certain art category cause like in her interview she mentions that people do not take kindly to a nude cellist.
Kathryn-
DeleteI agree with you, the business side of art is often overlooked when you're first starting out; until you need those business skills like yesterday! I am still learning every day just how to promote myself and my work, much less going to Moorman's level of executing concerts and festivals.
That said, I was struck by a notion when you mentioned wondering whether Charlotte a performance artist or a performing artist. I had been wondering the same thing myself, but I landed on the idea that Charlotte's "art" was not her musical or avant garde performances, but rather her ability to bring musicians, poets, and painters alike to perform their art for large mainstream audiences. I know, I know, this is not an art in the traditional sense, but i believe that bringing people together and pulling their best performance out is an art that few people are able to master like Moorman.
I don’t quite now how to land this week. I understand the inequities of the way the world works and that there are a lot of boys clubs out there, but I also see there is a definite shift occurring. Of course, it seems that women loose a part of their career when they decide to become mothers. But, at the same time, when people say that men have never had to give up on their career to have a family, that may be true, but the men that focused on their career never quite got to have their family. My dad focused on his career, and most nights, he would come home after I went to sleep. My mother stayed home and delayed her career until I went to high school. Who’s the winner? I think there is some strange, entitled, malarkey to the idea that someone should be able to have it all. No one can have it all. In order to be the husband and father I have always wanted to be, I have taken a career that has no real advancement. I am doing the same job now that I will probably doing for the next 20 or 30 years. I could have gone into another field, work late, got promotions, and phoned in my marriage and parenting, but I chose not to. There are many times I go home and want to work on art or writing or anything that would benefit my advancement, but I don’t. I choose to put that down in order to roll around on the floor with my kid. My wife has done the same thing. She has reduced her hours so that she can be home more. Neither of us have it all. But we’re equally sharing the burden in a way I don’t believe my parents’ or grandparents’ generation did.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the equal pay issue and women having to temper their speech in order to be better received, I do believe it is wrong. I think anytime a person is molded by society to falsely become something because of an arbitrary set of standards it is ridiculous. Calling little girls bossy and prompting them to be more demure is ridiculous, and I will have none of it in my house. I hope that by the time my daughter is an adult, gender is nothing more than an identifier as to which set of parts that you were born with and that it will have nothing to do with an expectation of behavior or profession. And I hope the same can be said for any boy that I may someday have. Hopefully he can pursue ballet as socially acceptably as he could football. Hopefully he wont be pressured to ignore his parental leave when he has children. Hopefully everyone can live the life they chose without having to cater to any expectations.
"I think there is some strange, entitled, malarkey to the idea that someone should be able to have it all."
DeleteMaybe it is because I can relate to your place in life Justin--with work and a young family--but you put words to something I have been feeling since I became a mother. I cannot have it all. And that is okay. I feel like feminism pressures me to pick up my pitchfork and demand my career and my competitive pay and my over-the-top sexual expression! But I cannot have the top-paying jobs because I am a mother. And that is okay. And my husband is choosing family over quickly climbing his career latter, too. I think much of our stress comes when we expect to climb our social/economic latters the same as someone without a family. Having a family changes the way I do things, and what's important. Yes, I think society should support those who have families with paid leave, sick days, etc... but since becoming a mother, I will never be the same kind of teacher I was before. My heart is divided now.
Sorry kind of a tangent :/
One more thing: a quote that came to mind from another book I am reading, "The Divided Heart: On Creativity and Motherhood"
Delete“Equality is not only about providing opportunities for women in the workplace, its also about lifting up the value of raising a family and being with your children…”
when i step into one room, i leave another
Deletein each move, intentional or not, i am leaving one thing for another, at least temporarily
i am finite. i cannot have it all. and i am not free to do anything. i have limited capacities, talents, connections. i am finite or at least as far as i understand time, space and energy.
In Twylas Tharp's book The Creative Habit, she suggests that artist's who are good at only one particular medium have a much easier and more focused path because they simply don't have to choose. She actually thinks it is a disadvantage to have a lot of things that you are good at because it dilutes your focus.
was it earlier this semester that we read something about artistic grieving--grieving what is lost when we say yes to something? because for every yes, there are a kaziillon consequential nos. yes means yes and no or at least no for now.
anyhow i whole heartily concur that i cannot have it all.
but damn. i do expect equal pay. i do expect not to be denied a route or experience because boobies have somehow allowed me to be excluded, i do expect to take lead in the stewardship of my own body.
yes, we've come along way baby. but life and gender and our compulsion to under stand our selves in terms of pecking order is all pretty messy. something pretty significant would need to change in our social functioning and social constituted identities to dislodge pecking order systems.
Its hard - when I was a young new mother to justify to the world why I choose to stay home and raise my newborn - so I quite trying to justify it to the world and just enjoy the place I was in - this for me tamed the demon that wanted to have it all! Today, as a mother of two college students - I'm happy with that decision!! My work is evolving and I feel I didn't deny my authenticity to prove or justify to the world...something that culture will never be happy or content to accept!!!
DeleteI feel every one needs to do life their way. My mother always taught me, especially after I go married and now have a kid, to politely listen to people when they tell you how you should do something and then do what you want. That's how she raised all of us and we turned out just fine.
DeleteRelated but unrelated, I have been reading a lot of articles about how the world will change with the automation of white collared jobs. This weekend there was an article about how software is decidedly better at monitoring and evaluating performance than any person. I constantly think about how much more productive we become in this technological age, and how that will continue. At some point, we will never be able to employ everyone. Just think of how many people will be out of work when Google starts selling those self-driving cars. I think we as a society are going to have to rethink how much work people need to be doing. I believe Americans in general work 50 to 60 hours a week. That really just isn't necessary. As a society we are getting so productive that at some point we wont need everyone to work to sustain our population. Maybe when all that happens, all these points will become moot. A computer will blindly evaluate everyone eliminating gender bias, and we will be able to reduce work hours so that we can do everything we want. I could give the instruction of classes I don't like to a Roomba and just focus on the groups I am really charged to work with, thus giving me more time to parent, husband, write, and art.
DeleteAs a parent that works I agree with you 100% it is a choice you make as a parent if you want to be involved or a workaholic and get alll the promotions etc. My mother is a workaholic however I was raised by my grandparents my grandfather was a farmer worked from sun up to sun down my grandmother was a teacher came home and still took care of me. I also choice to work in a job that allows me to work 8-5 and be home with my family every night mon - fri. It may not pay BIG bucks BUT its still my dream job in the career I went to college for and LOVE it provides benefits and my co-workers are awesome and understanding people. I can truly say I am happy where I aml
Delete…and you will be “right” and happy…a note from my grandmother to my mom
ReplyDeletehttp://kathykelley.us/be-right-and-happy/ with images
"All I hear and see all day are men speaking their opinions, and I give mine in the same exact manner, and you would have thought I had said something offensive." - Jennifer Lawrence
Having just reread Kristi's intro for this week, read the Jennifer's facebook post, and watched the 3 videos, in a moment of ADD I reached behind me and pulled an old thick tome from my bookshelf.
On the inside cover of the 699 yellow paged hard bound tome of Amy Vanderbilt’s Complete Book of Ettiquette: A Guide to Gracious Living I found the following note to my mom from her mother.
May this answer all your problems! So you will always be correct — Be gracious, be thoughtful, have a warm heart and you will be “Right” and happy.
All love, Mother
Christmas 1956
And I laughed. Hopefully I don't need to unpack the cultural implications in how this relates to Moorman, Lawrence and ourselves.
Kathryn, I'm glad you brought up the business of being an artist - creating these festivals gave Charlotte a creative infrastructure that kept her confidence going. I also think for other artists it helps to deal with the unknown and public perception of your work. A really great actress that I've observed and read about is Goldie Hawn - she has a head for business, well respected in the community and created a production company,( Reese Witherspoon and Dolly Parton too) - all respected, kind business women that created a creative infrastructure to help them navigate and weather the journey of an artist. (Goldie Hawn, A lotus grows in the mud.) Her book - talked about dealing with business through the thick of feminism rhetoric.
ReplyDeleteJustin/Kathryn - I agree with you both, If we don't teach our kids to embrace who they are - they aren't going to weather the crisis of confidences that will come there way. (Kids in our class or our family) Embrace their strengths! Focus less on gender.
I read it as a "if you build it, they will come" moment.
DeleteTangent [Julia Kristeva'a intertextual ADD] of the dissertation direction sort...
ReplyDeleteReading along with Moorman's stories and our discussions, "A Performative-Performance Analytical Approach: Infusing Butlerian Theory Into the Narrative-Discursive Method" by Tracy Morison and Catriona Macleod
AND thinking about gender through Butler's lens - gender as a doing, meaning that the doer is maintaining, creating, maintaing by a series of performed deeds
I started wondering about artist as doing - doing artist. for most of us being artist to some degree being artist is a part of our constitutive identity. so what i was wonder (and think is the case) do we do artist in the same way (in terms of constitution of convention) we do gender?
can i take all the theory on doing gender and transfer it on to doing artist? especially in terms of both performance and performitivity!
recall i have a notion that a writing practice seems to play some function for seminal visual artists (there is a trend that these artists, besides making also write).
And back to butlerian and related theories, can i transfer "doing artist" possibly on to understanding the function a writing practice plays for the visual artist. are seminal visual artists' writings a part of doing artist, constituting and fleshing out their artistic identities? is this an important function of visual artists writings? and if so does this constitutive identity as artist writing have a particular form? in other words are there characteristics of writing practices/genres/themes/etc that are more relevant?
was judd constituting his identity as minimalist, as art, through his writing? is textual stance taking a part of constituting a strong enough identity to with stand the public battering winds of the art world?
when you say "doing artist" as we "do gender" (through Butler's definition) do mean that you learn an artists character and then exert that standard?
DeleteI know that for me, what I do is who I am.
grin...saying it like a girl (recent articles -2015)
ReplyDeletemore commentary on Jennifer, but really on the state of affairs of woman talk in business meetings--Washington Post
and hyperallergic on gender discrepancies in the literary world
and an interesting business perspective washington post
and the visual art worldartnews taking the measure of sexism facts, figures (ha) and fixes
and of course even rereading Nochlin's 1971 feels as though it was written just this year.Implications of the Women's Lib movement for art history and for the contemporary art scene—or, silly questions deserve long answers; followed by eight replies” FROM 1971: WHY HAVE THERE BEEN NO GREAT WOMEN ARTISTS? BY Linda Nochlin POSTED 05/30/15 4:00 PM
I am sorry but I have another article, though I think this is my favorite. I will give you a snippet to lure you into clicking the link <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/23/opinion/when-an-apology-is-anything-but.html?_r=1>NY Times, 06/2015, Sloane Crosley</a>
ReplyDelete<i>...I think it’s because we haven’t addressed the deeper meaning of these “sorrys.” To me, they sound like tiny acts of revolt, expressions of frustration or anger at having to ask for what should be automatic. They are employed when a situation is so clearly not our fault that we think the apology will serve as a prompt for the person who should be apologizing.
It’s a Trojan horse for genuine annoyance, a tactic left over from centuries of having to couch basic demands in palatable packages in order to get what we want. All that exhausting maneuvering is the etiquette equivalent of a vestigial tail.
When a woman opens her window at 3 a.m. on a weeknight and shouts to her neighbor, “I’m sorry, but can you turn the music down?” the “sorry” is not an attempt at unobtrusiveness. It’s not even good manners. It’s a poor translation for a string of expletives.
These sorrys are actually assertive. Unfortunately, for both addresser and addressee alike, the “assertive apology” is too indirect, obscuring the point. It comes off as passive-aggressive — the easiest of the aggressions to dismiss.
So we should stop. It’s not what we’re saying that’s the problem, it’s what we’re not saying. The sorrys are taking up airtime that should be used for making logical, declarative statements, expressing opinions and relaying accurate impressions of what we want...</i>
HEDGE is a statement made to reduce the force of impact of a stance. it is often employed to save face, either one's own or on behave of someone else. Deployment of the apology as in previous article is a form of hedging and reduces the force of the following statement or request. historically this has been linked to female gender language practices.
DeleteJENNIFER LAWRENCE throwback
in Jennifer Lawrence FB post that set a lot in motion, note that the half of the first paragraph is a form of a hedgy apology
Lawrence doesn't say the words sorry, but the structure is a form of apology prefacing what she is about to say. She is hedging (hey i am not perfect BUT) and it reduces the force of her pissed off-ness, it just replicates a form of "girl" talk with the addition of words considered more crass.hedging, i am sorry, is linked to female language practices :)
I don’t like joining conversations that feel like they’re “trending.” I’m even the asshole who didn’t do anything about the ice-bucket challenge — which was saving lives — because it started to feel more like a “trend” than a cause. I should have written a check, but I fucking forgot, okay? I’m not perfect. But with a lot of talk comes change, so I want to be honest and open and, fingers crossed, not piss anyone off.
second paragraph begins with a hedge:
It’s hard for me to speak about my experience as a working woman because I can safely say my problems aren’t exactly relatable.
third paragraph hedge to qualify, justify,to safe face when she is communicating her expectations:
But if I’m honest with myself, I would be lying
On a sidenote, one of the characteristics of artists is that chaff under particular conventions and then proceed to bend these cultural citations...ie Jennifer first did this with the issue of her weight and what hollywood expected of her and that she was "troubling" (thank you judith butler) the system...now she is chaffed by the gender wage gap and is finally speaking up...
in my opinion [hedge] this is the really niche and cultural function of artists -- artists as prophets, artists as whale vomit [jonah] being spat up onto the shores of cultural phenomena and calling a spade a spade.
this is the role of art, not art itself, but that society needs these "tantrum" throwers loud or subtle to right our sinking ships. "hey the boat is leaking over here and here and here and i don't like it!" (not how i took out a qualifying hedge and suddenly i sound direct like a man...did it bug you when i didn't qualify such a strong statement?)
for me [hedge], though I waffled with Lawrence's vernacular language use, i finally arrived at not a tantrum, but with the fact the she is pissed off about this issue and all the paradoxes around it. if a man wrote this, i would read it is that this is his hot topic that pisses him off. but because lawrence wrote in way that communicated anger and has boobies, it is a cultural convention to see this as a tantrum and in certain ways she employed this view through her references to "spoiled", unrelatable, etc. the truth is i vocationally and personally i very much relate to her situation of wage discrepancies and conventions that make being direct about money and entitlement (the positive kind) seem unnatural in a woman.
"i am sorry" for all my typos that make my text hard to translate at times. and in this case I really am because it reduces the force via unclarity of what i would like to say. not a trojan horse apology :)
DeleteBut Kathryn - was it affective if the world misunderstood Jennifer’s view...setting back the feminism movement. Did it affectively put the movement with words to help us believe "all lives matter'? Which is what I think she was trying to express but didn't because her ranting got in the way – her anger caused the world to believe she was having a feminism (power over) – one way road to equality for one type of person. A “gong” (loud crash of noise) never wins me back to a movement – it makes me run further from it.
DeleteGail, i totally get that she was a loud crashing gong, but has she shy-ed you away from a belief in equal pay or the knowledge that there are different conventional gender expectations that may cause damage? Or has she just pushed you away from the label of feminism.
Deletethe feminist label has in my lifetime way to much baggage for me to strap on those bags. so i don't wear the label, but i absolutely agree that i have no interested in sliding down the social hierarchy in terms of work for cash just because i have boobs. and i agree that both men and women are complicit, consciously and unconsciously, in replicating behavioral patterns that create pecking order based on body [gender/race/difference] and not abilities.
for me culture change in the microcosm of my life does not occur when things are comfortable. if i am slowly sliding down a gentle slope toward a cliffs edge, i don't really notice the consequences when things are slow and gentle. if someone politely whispers, "hey you are on a slippery slope with a cliff at its end," I may register what they are telling me. but it isn't a crisis and i am in "control" of this slow slide. but when they scream, "oh god kathy, you're about to fall off a cliff," besides jarring me, scaring the crap out of me, i respond and attempt some sort of remediating action. pain and discomfort are what incline me to move off a particular slide. it is not the ineffectualness or longterm consequence of the slide, but some pressing pain, stress or unsettling gong that gets me to note, "Houston, we have a problem," and act. i see human nature like physics--an inert object [status quo] will not move unless a force is applied to it [gong]. a gentle force result in only the slightest movement that will then quickly dissipate. perhaps this is why the greatest cultural shifts in the US have occurred on the heels of war. war is dang uncomfortable, painful, disruptive, it is a force that requires us to recon with until the energy for change dissipates. and incursions in the middle east have been held emotionally distant from us and we have not experienced its force at the larger cultural level (those families impacted directly, have probably significantly shifted).
Not warlike, but gongish, I agree that Lawrence has unsettled and pushed many away from the label of feminism. For me I am pushed away only from her at a personal level and not the issues she presents. I also write off some of her vernacular language because of her age. Additionally I think she is somewhat representative of the younger generation of women who keep bumping their head on engendered vocational ceilings. And i give her some grace because she did not randomly go off on a rant, but a door was opened by a request.
There has been a plethora of fallout articles from her rant--NY Times, Washington Post, etc. And these articles though they reference her, they aren't about her. instead these articles focus on revealing the stats, empirical research, etc about the ongoing dilemma of gender pay discrepancies and the problematic conventions of language in the work place. So here pissed off rant opened a timely window for those of us who are older to more politely discuss these ongoing issues. in this way i believe Lawrence has been effective for the cause from which feminism arose from.
On the vocation vs motherhood note, i do think their has been radical changes of attitude amongst women. At least for me and my feminine cohorts, either applying one's self to a vocation for $$ or to the vocation of motherhood or something in between are all of equally viable and of both personal and cultural value. I don't know this belief is true for the larger male population, but i do can see it shifting-ie Justin.
DeleteAnd had my body afforded me the opportunity of children, I would have definitely chosen the full-time vocation of motherhood since that avenue was financial open to me. And though perhaps i might have liked to have worked as well, i do not have the energy level for juggling a bunch of balls simultaneously. the capacity to multitask is not in me.
i find the vocation of motherhood highly noble choice and with longer term payouts than work for hire.
I think that it is interesting that so many female artists explore the idea of motherhood, mother nature, and fertility and many never had children. It's as if the interest is there, I mean it IS biological, however their job just got in the way? They only could (had time to) create art not life.
DeleteBefore I had my daughter , even as a teenager, I always knew I wanted to work. And as I got older I just accepted that I wouldn't have children. "I am a professional woman I don't have time (then couldn't) have children. When I finally did get pregnant, there was never any question that I would continue to get my doctoral degree and of course be a working mother. I love being at home, but I also love working... be a scholar. She can do/be whatever she wants to so/be and I can be an exmple for her of one avenue.
But I also understnad that I can't be 100% wife, 100% mother, 100% scholar. I am better at different things each week/month. I disagree with those early feminists... you can't have it all and do it all, but I can do my best.
Hi all, when I was a student in the 1970's women's issues were beginning to surface.We were coming off of the 1960's ,the protest era etc.I was a child of the 1970's not the 1960's.It was still peace,love etc.-very naive.I think like all countries,ideologies,movements , people all become realists.This is not to say that we have become complacent.Far from it.I think of farming households whereby everyone must pull their weight.There is a certain division of labor but no one gets off Scot free-male or female.I think that the women's movement has matured beyond the 1960's when it had to be more in your face!There were noticeable injustices against women and much sexism .I think it was quite brave of Moorman , toughing it out in old NYC( I am heading there on Tuesday for an art conference) especially with her Southern accent.I am sure people thought it was charming.She did some controversal things like the violin smashing incident against Saul Gottlieb,p.216-217.Once again the 1960's naivete is revealed:"Art alone .he argued ,could not bring about real social change."
DeleteKatharine,well written points.My wife and I will celebrate 34 years of marriage in November.We raised 4 boys .We managed to keep our creative lives amidst raising a family.Your point about having children vs. the theoretical view of motherhood sure is different.My wife and I ran our household lovingly but like a business to keep order.My wife had a daycare which was cool because our kids had some built in playmates for after school, ect.We even created a children's art camp at my college which our kids made art at.This flew in the face of the 1990's which seemed to advocate what you had said about all of those 100%'s-who could really do all that ? Sacrifices have to be made,energy,money,time,et al.My college teaching position afforded me flex time to pick up kids and do the needed chores.My administration was sensitive to this.All of it helped our children to be well adjusted,art was made,European travel happened.It all managed to work naturally without outside ideologies,interesting in theory but useless in practice. Bravo to you for balancing your life thoughtfully!
DeleteKathryn, so get what your saying...forgiveness and unconditional love can be a gong too and revolutionary thinking! In answer to your question, I am not a feminist.
DeleteDavid - I agree about the division of labor.... I don't want to mow the lawn or take out the trash, my husband does that. Not to say that a woman can't do that, some women like lawn work. Personally I like watering my roses and that's it. The 70's brought forth a lot of questions and challenges of gender equality, but I think that we can never be truly equal - however biologically and socially we fill in where the other is deficient thereby making us balanced. Balance vs symmetry!
DeleteI agree with Kathryn from above that as a performer the difference between performance artist and actress one creates the performance the other follows the leadership of the one who created the performance. I think Mooreman needed the collaboration with Paik and she had the “freedom in her vision” to fulfill the mission of bringing sex to music. As with all collaborations – sometimes you know when its over. I believe this mission had a profound affect on tv shows…(looking at the big picture)…we started to see sexier images and themed shows. I’m referencing Charlie’s Angels, MASH, Dallas. Sexier images in performances for mainstream music to the masses. I feel like these artist started to play off Charlotte’s happenings/research methods from the festivals and started to push their own boundaries.
ReplyDeleteOk so I was reading along and the violin incident on page 216 really struck me. Not so much because of hte violence and uproar that it created but the comment about the "poor kid" who could potentially use that violin. It made me think about art and privilege. Is art only for the priviledged? Or is it a right? Does that poory kid have the right to that violin? MANY artists have come from nothing - Basquiat, Leonardo DaVinci... but so many have been at the mercy of the economically elite. The art world is such a yuppie environment filled with deep pockets and higher education. Did that "poor kid" have a right to that violin?
ReplyDeleteha, katharine. the cold answer is if we as a country choose to remain democratic and capitalistic, well then no every kid does not have a "right" to a violin. Like sports equipment (i know bad analogy but fundamental the same issue), schools may choose to equip their facilities to provide a wide variety of opportunities. in the same way we can't have it all, schools cannot provide all avenues of expression-athletic, arts, etc. as a country, we are not set up to nor our we fiscally able to provide all avenues to all students...hmmm no kid left behind hasn't panned out. good idea in theory, but we have figured out how to implement it effective.
Deleteeven if we don't choose a capitalistic system, so far no social or communist system has yet to pan out with violins or even food for everyone. maybe someday when we have star trek moleculizers, a kid can push a button and bam a beautiful violin, steak, and ice tea will appear...plus an arugula salad.
i think of it like mallow's hierarchy of needs, when food and shelter are at risk, then those are the needs we try to meet. only after that come the more privileged needs.
perhaps in our next lives we will discover utopia. currently dystopia is the order of the day. :)
i know. i know i am the nay sayer poohing on your lovely envisioning of a violin for everyone.
can we resolve the health care for everyone and then add violins next :)
i love the idea of the potential of art for anyone who would like to give it a try.
Katharine, again, I wonder, just as the internet has allowed everyone access to knowledge, what the 3D printer will do for access to products. I find it so funny/tragic, that even though we as a nation can afford to feed everyone/cloth everyone/shelter everyone we refuse to. There's this constant cry of, "they didn't earn that," which is a silly statement. I see many people with a lot less than what I have that work just as hard, if not harder, than I do. There was an interesting article I read the other day about how we really don't need everyone to work, so why not let some people not. Why can't everyone have access to violins and education and cheeseburgers if we can make it work?
Deletehttp://bit.ly/1BQiDHN
So Kathy... is our answer socialism then? Or maybe even communism, heck they all had toilet paper. Maybe not the good kind with quilted layers but butts were clean.
DeleteI don't think that every kid has a right to a violin or a right to anything beyond their necessities, but if a child shows interest and potential then we should be able to provide the "extra".
My husband has often worked in title one schools where 90% of the school has free lunch. And yet, the music programs thrive. Sometimes sacrifices are made and passions rewarded.
Justin, like Kathy you speak of a different economical system.... let's all move to Switzerland!
DeleteI also disagreed with the artistic criticism of the performance on the next page (217)... wheere Gottlieb professed that the "violence of her act seemed to him ineffectual, and therefore pointless." I completely disagree. The performance, though the violent out break was not Moorman's intention, did in fact allow the audience a glimpse of the human condition. Isn't that what a lot of performances are about? "What will you do if I do this? What will happen if I do that?" I've always believed that performance= experiement= outcome - always. Whether it was what you intended or not. Her performance just shifted to a happening is all.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if these types of criticism happens because its suppose to be musical art.... what if it was titled visual performaning art. I didnt ever really know that we judge art differntly until reading this book. I mean it was like an unwritten rule that we do I guess but why? I dont know if that makes sense ha ha
DeleteMaybe you're right Candice.... what if we removed the musical instruments? Cage did....sometimes
DeleteIn planning a paper on Aesthetics,I ran across a 2012 lecture given by feminist author Camille Paglia, always the controversial author of many books like Sexual Personae,her classic and Glittering Images, she provides some interesting perspectives on the first waves of the Woman's movement .She is a free thinker who refuses to join the bandwagon.She utilizes rational thought in her examination of art and culture.This I really appreciate in these days of little or no art/societal critique,but only blind acceptance by the masses indoctrinated by media instead of books. Watching the video will provide some fresh perspective.As Robert Hughes has stated: Nothing if Not Critical.So true of art and life.The only thing I disagree with is her take on George Lucas.But this is minor! What are your thoughts?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.zocalopublicsquare.org/category/events/video-archive/?postId=41817
Wow what a roller coaster ups and downs for these chapters. How in some moments people said how horrible her performances were to financial issues, health issues, then going to performances that were so good the the best... However all that really comes to mind is this woman is a sucker for punishment. The last page of the reading pretty much summed it up for me when Jim McWilliams says "As he got to know Moorman better, however, he came to believe that she enjoyed "suffering for her art," ... Then how funny is it that Frank her husband says she was scared of everything in life....",but if you tell her it's a performance, she'll do anything." I feel like reading these stories about her its like watching a transition from music to visual arts on p 234 I had another ah ha moment when Moorman says herself "Well, I dont call it music. The only explanation I like is that it is mixed media." That is exactly what I was thinking!
ReplyDeleteHow I feel about the wage gap... my personal story: when i first started in my career field I spoke to a friend of mine (a male) asking advice since he has been in the DFW art field for years and asked about my pay. He was furious that I took so low at the beginning because i had a 4 year degree some experience and an internship under my belt already. That first year was kind of hard for me but I swore when my year came up I would WOMAN up and ask for a raise. Well to my surprise I got a promotion with a pay bump to sr. graphic designer (but really holding a art directors position with sr. graphic designer pay) at times I feel like I am kinda being gypped but I know I have only had this new position for under a year and trust me I will be WOMANING up in a year and asking for a raise. After reading so many articles and columns that woman get paid less because we are just to scared to ask. That boggles my mind.
I love that phrase Candace--WOMANING UP!! And be awesome when the time presents its self to be woman up!
DeleteDitto, to this! We can't sit passively, it takes action as well as theory (which sometimes we are unaware of), ideas, and hope - there is always a first step. :D Best of luck, I hope you get that raise!!
DeleteKat: hee hee :o)
DeleteKim: thank you!
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI am a feminist. I am a feminist because there is still work to be done in this world, to make ALL people equal (men, women, trans, etc.). If that makes me naïve, idealistic, whatever – I will take that. Because it all begins with hope, a hope that the world will be a more equal place for all. That we all, regardless of gender, race, orientation, etc. will be able to have choices: to be stay at home mothers/fathers if we wish, to focus on our careers, to work and be mothers/fathers, to get an education, to give our opinions without fear, to know that our gender/race/orientation/etc. does not define our pay or access to opportunity, to be who we wish to be regardless of societal definitions of gender and orientation, to choose our own futures, etc. These things may not happen for everyone within my lifetime, but I have hope, and a wish that people be judged on their merit and work, and not on biology or social constructs of gender, race, orientation, and the like. And if that makes me naïve, call me naïve. If that makes me idealistic, call me idealistic. If calling myself a feminist means taking on baggage, done. I am a feminist.
ReplyDeleteWhen reading this week and thinking about Lawrence’s words, and Oprah as well who has spoken about wage equality, we still have a long way to go toward economic equality (pay, opportunity, etc). Granted, their experiences are different from a vast majority, but they both are in positions to be heard, why not make something of it? Why apologize? I will speak, others can take what they are going to take, but I aim to be heard as well. Last week I had to handle stepping away from a project that had gotten out of hand and one where I was being asked to fulfill a role I have neither the time nor ever the intention of doing, but in saying “no” I felt guilty, apologetic, and more. During our final meeting, none of the men involved appeared to feel guilty or apologize, why did I? In part this made me think about Amy Schumer’s sketch from ‘Inside Amy Schumer’: “I’m Sorry” – and articles that Kathy mentioned. Why should I apologize for doing what I feel is best? I shouldn’t and I don’t now. I did what was originally needed of me from the get go, and did all I had intended to do with the project, and that is enough.
I also read this from Huffpost, thought to share.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/people-reward-angry-men-but-punish-angry-women-study-suggests_561fb57be4b050c6c4a47743?utm_hp_ref=women&ir=Women§ion=women
Ha, Hi Ms naive idealist Kimberly! I very much want that naive and idealistic dream to become real!
DeleteI have my bags to but keep trying to work them down to cocktail clutches versus carry on or the gigantic rolling one we are now charged extra for :0
Yep yep, we all have baggage already, I am just happy to take this one (but all about personal choice). I wish those bags were tiny, but they are huge - and often placed by others who wish to hold us back so I totally get ya.
DeleteIt took me a while to learn not to feel guilty when I said "no" to others like 30 years (Im only 31 now) but last year taught me so much! Buying my first car, house, etc. I learned REAL quick to say no if I was not happy or if people where trying to push me past my budget and I used to do a lot for people even when I didnt have the time or energy and again last year with so much going on with my career and family I had to finally say NO I cant. I wont let myself feel guilty anymore when it comes to my family, or finances.
DeleteCandice, yes! :D I can only imagine having to stand firm with that kind of decision, that is a big purchase. 'Putting my foot down' has and continues to be something I grapple with (as I just went through it again just last week) - we are so ingrained to be polite, but it sometimes takes us from being polite to just mean being steamrolled. I am all for being kind, tactful, etc. but not okay with being taken advantage of or used because of that need to be polite.
DeleteKim-
DeleteUnder your definition, I am also an idealistic feminist. I want women and men, regardless of their skin color, religious beliefs, or orientation to have the right to choose for themselves in our country. I do shy away from embracing the "feminist" label usually because the vocal feminists that I see dominating the equality conversation do not strike me as pursuing equal rights or opportunity. Truthfully, it seems as though they want everyone to think/feel/react the same exact way as them, and that is what turns me off of traditional conservatists as well. Like you, I want to voice my opinion for those that cannot. But at the same time, I don't want to push my ideals on everyone, because I know that the way I believe is not for everyone. With that said, you're right, we should not have to apologize or hold back how we feel or shy away from discussions just because someone might disagree with us. Is there a balance between intellectual discourse and a heated debate??
post marker
ReplyDelete